Frans Timmermans would like to become Prime Minister of the Netherlands, but his GL-PvdA is lagging behind the leading group of VVD and NSC in the polls. Where he previously always encouraged Pieter Omtzigt, he now also sees obstacles. “For me it is also a question whether Pieter can govern. Or can he only control?”
After a visit to Málaga, absence from the second RTL debate and fuss surrounding the climate march he attended on Sunday, the latest Ipsos poll shows 23 seats for GL-PvdA. There are three fewer than NSC and even five fewer than the VVD, with which Timmermans absolutely does not want to govern. “It is close,” says Timmermans. However, he is surprised at the solid support that the liberals seem to have after thirteen years of Rutte. “I did not expect that.”
Why not?
“Because I heard a lot of Dutch people who said: it has to be different from the finish years gone by. And I don’t hear the VVD saying substantively that they are going to do things differently. This is not evident from their election manifesto. So it’s great for them that they’re still keeping up.”
You say: it’s close. But in the latest poll, NSC and VVD are in the lead and you follow at some distance.
“Well, that distance is so small. I want we now l like to go up. I am very strong in a final sprint.”
We see that when you, as party leader, take some space, you immediately receive comments from your own circle. If you slide over the nitrogen year, they immediately start sulking at GL.
“Yes, I h ad I should have said something more explicitly at that moment what I meant by that. If we really want to achieve the goals, we will have to do it ourselves and not just ask others to do so. You could save that for after the elections, but I wanted to make that clear at that moment.”
It may not be such a strange comment, but GL members immediately take action, including MPs. Then the voter wonders: where does that party actually stand?
“That’s h The discussion ended very quickly: they all support the party leader. He also believes that 2030 should be achieved for nature restoration. This does not have to be a specific nitrogen percentage in 2030.”
Do you feel at home with GL people who protest against old white men in high places?
“There are a lot of things I can do, but don’t worry about not being a white man honor. I think it is very important that you have to build bridges during this time. And apparently an overwhelming majority of members agreed with my choice.”
Does the Netherlands have an asylum problem?
“Yes.”
What should we do about that?
“Very much All nuisance, from Budel to Ter Apel, is caused by people who clearly have no right to protection. People who are rejected and don’t go back to where they came from. We can only solve that at a European level.”
But what should the Netherlands do itself? For example, become more unattractive, so that the inflow is limited?
“I think k that you must make binding agreements with all municipalities about small-scale shelter. What we are not going to do is stop family reunification.”
Does that mean that you are against the two-status system desired by VVD and NSC?
“No, but we don’t think something like that is necessary. Many other parties do. I think that this will be discussed in detail in the formation in order to find a compromise. For me the bottom line the international treaties we have concluded. You can’t talk to me about that.”
a ntis emism has increased sharply since Hamas’s attack on Israel. How do you explain that?
“Already before the pogrom of October 7, anti-Semitism was on the rise. It has gotten much worse now. Last week I had a conversation with Jewish and Muslim youth. They disagreed with each other and were very emotional for very understandable reasons. But they were willing to listen to each other.”
That’s nice, but that’s not what is happening on the streets of Amsterdam right now. With an Israeli flag in the capital you have to fear for your safety. How on earth is that possible?
“That is possible, because these people hold all Jews responsible for Israel’s actions. That’s where the mistake lies. It is the smallest minority…”
Timmermans’ voice breaks.
“This affects me very personally, because I have been working on the subject of anti-Semitism for a long time in all kinds of positions… Jews are a minority that does not convince other people to also become Jews. They just want to be able to live in Europe as European citizens.” Fel: “They are entitled to that and we have a historical obligation to safeguard that right. Anti-Semitism comes from the extreme left and the extreme right, at the moment it really comes from all corners.”
Is ‘from the river to the sea’ a disgusting statement?
“Yes, because it was really adopted by Hamas and Islamic Jihad with the aim of wiping Israel off the map. You could say: that’s not what we mean by it. But if these two terrorist organizations interpret it that way, for me it is a disgusting statement that I find unacceptable.”
What do you do with GL-PvdA politicians who disagree with this?
“That’s possible, isn’t it? There are people in all parties who do not agree with everything. Again, those people give a different interpretation to that slogan. I give my interpretation to it. What anyone else thinks about this is up to them, but I am crystal clear about this.”
At WNL you said that the cabinet has been standing still for 1,000 days, especially in the field of climate. Later you qualified that again.
“I meant it differently, but that is what I think of the cabinet in general.”
But that’s not true, is it?
“Well, I think so.”
Your reputation now is that you occasionally say things – perhaps out of emotion or out of conviction – that are not entirely correct. How do you view this yourself?
“I stand by what I said. I also maintain that I am able to get things moving, to make compromises, to get 27 countries on the same page and I hope to be able to show that.”
But things that aren’t quite right. Is that something you identify with?
“Can you be a little more specific?”
If you would like. There was a lady who fell under a tree in Haarlem during a summer storm. And in response to that you said that it ‘all has to do with climate change’. But meteorologists said ‘no’.
“Whoa, whoa, whoa. No no no. What they are saying is that you cannot link every individual storm to climate change.”
And not every death either.
“Wait a second. The reverse is also not true. You can’t argue that this storm had nothing to do with climate change.”
There are more examples of things that you were not very happy with afterwards. So we ask ourselves: where does that come from?
“Look, I am someone who is open-hearted. I always have been and that will never change. And people who are open-minded sometimes say things that shock other people. But that’s who I am. Take it, or leave it .”
NSC will probably become a new major party. Do you have a good feeling about how this could go after November 22? You hear people in The Hague say: there might be new elections next year.
“For me it is also a question whether Pieter can govern. Or can he only control? He has never driven before. And I don’t believe, like Pieter, in ee n minority cabinet. Then you have to negotiate on every subject, one person wants a bridge here and the other a school there. Then you cannot make a real long-term policy.”
There is also speculation here and there that if you don’t make it to the top 2, you will quit. Then you just do something else.
“That may be said, but we have agreed that I will stay. And if my party does not enter the cabinet, I will become party chairman.”
Are you finishing the ride?
“Yes, especially when it comes to the right, because that never lasts long.”