Masha, you are now in Saint Petersburg. Can you tell me what you see in the news there?
‘On TV here you can only see lies. Statements by Putin or by Lavrov (foreign minister) are continuously repeated. The message is very clear: ‘We Russians don’t bomb. We do not wage war. We are on a peace mission.’ They keep saying this, it’s unbelievable. Total propaganda. I also watch online videos coming from Siberia. About people who do take to the streets in protest and are subsequently arrested. But you don’t see those videos on regular television.’
There is a lot of misinformation going around in Russia. Now it is said that weapons are hidden in residential areas in Kiev, which would in turn prompt Putin to bomb civilians. Do you also hear these sounds?
‘Yes, I hear these lies too. It fits into the broader perspective of making Ukraine look like ‘the aggressor’. You’ve been seeing this pattern for a long time.’
The Russian media watchdog (Roskomnadzor) is currently accusing ten media organizations in the country of sharing incorrect information about Ukraine. For example, the media should not describe the ‘special military mission’ in Russia as an ‘attack, invasion or declaration of war.’ They could face fines and other penalties if they do not agree to Roskomnadzor’s request. There is a threat, among other things, to limit access to their websites.
‘I’m not surprised. And I think they’re going to shut down websites anyway. Just like I expect not to be able to use Facebook next week. The other sounds are getting smaller and smaller.’
Do Russians believe what they see on TV?
‘Yes. A large part of the people believe what is said on the news and on the talk shows. Look, Russia is a very divided country. I myself am in a bubble of intellectuals, of people who have had an education and think the same as I do. These are also the people who really speak out against the war and who take to the streets. Then there is a large group of Russians who say: ‘I don’t know anything and I don’t believe anyone.’ They keep completely aloof. The last group is the Russians who completely believe Putin and who have been brainwashed by twenty years of propaganda. They think this war is good. They are convinced that the government in Ukraine has indeed banned the Russian language. It is difficult to say how large this last group is. It is estimated here that about seventy percent of Russians are behind Putin because of all this propaganda. That’s a lot of people.’
But there were also many Russians who took to the streets for Navalny? Who turn against Putin? And who are now against this war?
‘They are there, but it is a relatively small group.’
Does this war remind you of Putin’s war in Chechnya, about which you made documentaries at the time?
“This war is completely different. Chechnya was far away for most Russians. It was about Muslims, about terrorism. A far from my bed show. But now there is hardly a Russian who does not have family or friends in Ukraine. Many people do have a grandfather or grandmother who comes there today. There was always a huge exchange between the two countries. I myself have never had any problems with the Russian language in Ukraine. That’s just completely accepted. In fact, many Ukrainians speak Russian at home. Just look at President Zelensky. His mother tongue is just Russian, I think he only really learned Ukrainian at a later age. What is being said in the stream of disinformation – ‘that Russian is banned in Ukraine’ – is therefore completely wrong.’
When there is so much exchange between the two neighboring countries, how come Russians believe the misinformation on TV? Surely they should hear from family and friends that this is not true?
‘That’s the complicated thing. Ukraine is also divided. In the east they are more Russian-minded than in the west. In Donetsk and Lugansk, disinformation is rampant. The inhabitants of these republics often also have family or friends in Russia and then pass on this misinformation. And don’t underestimate the Russian propaganda. For years in Russia every day, on all programs, a certain story has been told about Ukraine. The first five times you don’t believe it, but the tenth time you start to doubt. And then you start to believe it. Of course, Russians who have really strong ties to Ukraine and visit the country regularly are a lot more resilient to that misinformation. They are able to see and hear for themselves what is going on. But for a large part of the Russians, that band is probably just too thin. The propaganda on TV is stronger.’
Do you now have a lot of contact with friends and acquaintances in Ukraine?
‘Yes, I have contacts in Kiev and Odessa. Friends of mine are on the run from Odessa with two small children. They are now in the car at the Romanian border. That woman absolutely does not want to leave her husband behind, but that man is expected to help defend the country. He can’t really cross the border. There is also great shame. Leaving now is a cowardly act for a man. But this man is one who has never held a gun in his hands. He is an artist. His wife also realizes, of course, that he will die immediately in the battle. That’s why she doesn’t want to leave him. That’s why they just stay at the border for now. They don’t know what to do.’
How do you think the coming days and weeks will go?
‘Let me state that I find it incomprehensible that those Russians are fighting. They must be totally brainwashed. I think if Putin wins this battle, he won’t stop. I see danger for Georgia and for the Baltic States. And Putin has already threatened so many times with nuclear weapons. If we as NATO get involved, it will be life-threatening. But I would like to point out this as a bright spot: if one person in the carefully constructed pyramid of rulers under Putin starts to have doubts, things can start to shift. If someone in his circle protests or thinks ‘this is not possible’, then something is possible. Let’s try to hope for that anyway.’