Dwhere does violence begin and where does it end? Are there cases in which the victim would only be 50, 40 or 30 percent victim, while in others he would be 100 percent victim? Can you say you were abused when you can’t deny having felt desire? In the new and more philosophical and less autobiographical of his novels, I’m still waiting for someone to apologize to me (Rizzoli), Michela Marzanoprofessor of moral philosophy at the Paris Descartes University, addresses an issue that can only be defined with cautious adjectives: delicate, difficult, complex, thorny, especially today.
Michela Marzano the meaning of consent
We discuss borders, as if men and women were territories with a border post. Five years after #MeToo, the words “consent”, “violence”, “victim” have taken on new meanings. When can we be sure that a “yes” does not hide an uncertainty? Where does courtship end and harassment begin?
Anna, the protagonist of the novel, works on the radio and teaches a journalism master’s degree. She dreamed of being an actress and, faced with the looks, the hands, the words of her men, her instinct has always been to give up pieces of herself. Looking back, she reflects on the ambiguity of the relationship with others and with our body: «When we fall in love we are all willing to give in so as not to lose the person we like» she says. And then: “Love is the perfect crime.”
In her novel, Michela Marzano explores the gray border between consent and abuse (Photo by Leonardo Cendamo/Getty Images)
There are no nuances
A crime without punishment?
«The MEPs sent a strong message: all non-consensual sexual relations must be classified as rape in every state of the Union. And the debate has reopened. I have been working on the topic of consent for a long time, I wrote my qualifying thesis on it in 2005 (never translated into Italian) when no one was talking about it yet, and I carry it within me with the desire to grasp all its nuances. I put all of myself into this book, I argued with my husband, with friends, I argued with my students who really couldn’t find the words to say it. We need to reflect on the stereotypes that hinder relationships and prevent us from fully expressing our desires.”
How difficult is it?
“Endlessly. On the one hand there is pornographic education, on the other those who propose to take it out on men. We should deconstruct a certain way of being male, the idea of considering women disposable, no matter what her desire is, her right to say yes or no. And do we want to talk about Italian comedy? Most of the films that boomers grew up with, and with which we grew up too, are full of sexism and stereotypes.”
Consent is a process
Do you accuse works considered masterpieces?
«Why shouldn’t we also criticize a film like My Love Help Me, where Alberto Sordi, on the beach of Sabaudia, chases and beats his wife, Monica Vitti, guilty of having fallen in love with another man? Or a Totò, perhaps untouchable, but who when he plays the prince in Totò e le donne describes us as inappropriate, overbearing, melancholy, reckless, malignant, superficial, selfish, envious, boring, greedy… yes even greedy, and everyone is laughing” .
But what is consent?
«It’s a process. Not a clear “yes” or “no”. I may want to play but, as in all games, I have to be able to say enough. There isn’t a friend or colleague who hasn’t experienced a situation like this: giving in rather than opposing. Giving in is not allowing. It’s fear, shame, guilt. There is also a false concept of freedom. True, it was necessary to break away from the patterns that managed sexuality in a rigid manner. But the liberation was misinterpreted. Do I shout “the body is mine” and then give it away? Our mothers made the revolution and we, within the system of power, gave in.”
But why if I say no, it’s not no?
If a girl goes into a room with a man and kisses him, but then doesn’t want to move forward and he forces her, is it still her fault?
«This, for many, is the difficult thing to understand. In the Netflix series, Anatomy of a Scandal, James and Olivia had a fling. One day, when everything between them is over, he rapes her in the elevator. At least, that’s what Olivia says in the complaint, saying that the story was closed and she was upset about it. When, in the elevator, James started kissing her, she had deluded herself that the relationship could resume. But then it got brutal. The whole trial revolves around the question: at the time of the facts, did James think that Olivia was in agreement? The term “allumeuse”, which is often used in French, literally means “one who turns on and then backs off”, in Italian it becomes “attizzac…”. And so a phrase like “ne fais pas la petite allumeuse”, which seems kind, is the obscene “don’t be a stickler…” (and he tells her).”
An “informed” consent
Perhaps for this reason many today would like, to avoid any misunderstanding, to codify any gesture. Can we imagine a kind of “informed consent”?
«Perhaps in medicine: when we refuse a treatment or accept it. We are aware of what we are doing because they explained it to us. But when sex is at stake, only a naive or crazy person can claim that consent can be informed, erasing the enigmas of desire. What do you allow yourself to do when you consent to a relationship? There is an abandonment, a letting go, a touching of the profound intimacy of our being. I think of that beautiful Korean series about a young woman who suffers from autism and, despite this, becomes a lawyer, Woo Young-woo. One day, she meets a man accused of raping a young disabled girl and she agrees to defend him. There is the whole question of ambivalence, what is agreed to, who can do it and who can’t, can’t or shouldn’t, isn’t capable of it. The disabled young woman says she loves that boy and yet denounces him, pushed by her mother: for her every man is cynical, let alone in front of her daughter, who seems grown up, but it is as if she were thirteen years old, she would say “yes” to anyone just to get begging for a little love. But who really takes advantage of whom? We are all disabled when we beg for affection.”
What is not acceptable
But men complain…
“Real. Sixty-seventy year olds don’t listen to us. My husband hasn’t read the book and, in effect, says, “We can’t do/say anything more.” But there is no zipper McCarthyism.”
What is not acceptable?
«Rubiales’ kiss on the mouth (unwanted) to the Spanish footballer Jennifer Hermoso during the awards ceremony: that is harassment. The words of Roberto Vannacci (“gender equality is one of the evils of our century”). They are hate speech, no more, no less, they are stones, not freedom of expression.”
How do you respond?
«Not with hashtags nor with invective (I saw very harsh tones regarding the Palermo rape). After a few weeks, everything is hushed up. We should bring women into the male world and men into the female world to understand each other. The opacity of desire escapes anyone.”
And you, are you waiting for someone to apologize to you?
«We all wait for someone to apologize to us for the wrongs we have suffered, but only we can apologize for what we have and have not done. We can become subjects of our desire and our life. Saying: maybe I was a victim, but from today I can make sure that my “no” is no.”
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