“Sometimes it seems that González and Guerra come to the aid of the PP”

Why does what seemed impossible before the elections not seem impossible now?

Politics is the art of the possible, François Mitterrand said, and it also depends on one essential thing, which is the correlation of forces. And I’m not talking about amnesty. Amnesty is a formula. We’ll see if it’s this or another similar one. What I do detect is that there is a desire to find some formula that allows closing a folder, turning the page. It seems that there is the will of the actors who can make it possible, each one defending their interests, of course. With resignations from everyone, but also maintaining positions. This is not a battle in which there can be winners and losers. You must win coexistence.

So it is the electoral result that is pushing the actors.

That happens every time there are elections. It is after the citizens speak that those elected must try to convey that popular will in formulas that allow not only to represent them, but also to articulate ways of governing.

The last time we interviewed him in EL PERIÓDICO the sedition reform was being negotiated. You said then that the independentists should recognize their mistakes of 2017. Do you still think about it?

Those who make mistakes are usually reluctant to acknowledge them, because they believe that this has a cost to their parish. The important thing is not so much what is said, but what is done. And in this regard, I believe that there has been a change between the positions that were held only a few weeks ago by everyone, for the general good. The problem is not just getting an investiture, because there will be an investiture in one way or another, repeating elections or without repeating them. The problem is that there is an investiture also based on proposals from a government that makes it possible to advance in coexistence and to advance the resolution of problems. And a process begins to begin that can lead there. In fact, it has not started yet, because let us not forget that the investiture currently in charge is that of Núñez Feijóo, not that of Pedro Sánchez. The other will come later.

Returning to the amnesty, should the Government demand guarantees from the pro-independence supporters that they will not do it again?

The logical thing would be for those who were wrong and know they were wrong to recognize it. If we reviewed the newspaper archive of the things they have said… Those who were only going to be there for 18 months, those who said that independence was just around the corner, that not only were the companies not going to leave, but that more were going to come. I believe that many voters appreciate being told the truth a little. And there’s nothing wrong with admitting that you’re wrong. Unfortunately, in politics that is very unusual. And if you admit it, you don’t have to say ‘mea culpa, I won’t do it again’ either. It is already understood that you will not do it again. There are some of them who say that they will do it again, but the majority do not say it, because they know that they will not do it again and that they cannot do it again. The important thing is how progress is made in solving the problem.

And to solve the problem, first there were pardons, then sedition reform, now it seems that amnesty is approaching…

Well, there are those who take it for granted, but I have not seen any bill, nor do I think it is an easy process. Those of us who know a little about how the State works know that this is not easy at all, let no one make a mistake. It is about finding a legal solution that allows closing a file, that of the people who have trials ahead of them, those who are outside, those who have things pending that may affect their assets. You don’t have to take things for granted. We are in a state of law and the executive has some powers, the legislature others and the judicial power, which is there, others. Things are easy in regimes where the rule of law does not exist. If not, things are complex and require efforts on the part of everyone, to explain and then respect the legal system, the Constitution, the roles of each of the powers of the State.

Would it help if the term ‘amnesty’ was circumvented, left aside?

I don’t know if that’s important or not, I’m not a constitutional expert. What I am saying is that we cannot fall for the simple message, which can sometimes add difficulties. The important thing is to see how a solution is found that is within the rule of law and that allows us to overcome this stage.

What would you say to those who think that if pardons come first, then the sedition reform and now it is possible that the amnesty comes, then the referendum can come?

Well, among other things, if there are doubts about whether amnesty is possible within the Constitution, a self-determination referendum is clearly impossible to have a constitutional fit. And that some of us who are not independentists and are in favor of finding a solution that allows those who have left to return and those who may go to prison not to have to go there, or that no one fears things that affect their family assets, We would not be in favor in any way of a referendum that would make independence and the dismemberment of Spain possible. I feel Catalan, but also Spanish and European.

What did you think Puigdemont’s intervention in Brussels?

He plays his role. We must be respectful and understanding, which does not mean complicit, with each other’s positions. This is a game that has only just begun. But, anyway, this will work out well if everyone is aware that he is going to move from his positions.

In any case, do you think that this intervention brings the investiture of Pedro Sánchez closer?

If we go back a few weeks, to the electoral campaign, Junts’ position was that they were going to block, they were not going to agree on anything. And it is evidence that they have moved. I think we have to be optimistic. I am not saying to be deluded: to be optimistic that it is possible to find a way out of the situation, that the majority of Catalans and Spaniards are because there is no PP and Vox government.

Do you understand the reluctance of some important socialist leaders, such as Felipe González or Alfonso Guerraregarding negotiating an amnesty?

These people have weight because of what they meant, not because they have political responsibilities, and they have the right to give their opinions. I do not deny it. But I would have liked more if they always gave their opinions, not just at certain moments when it seems that they come to the aid of the Popular Party. When there is a PP that has clearly agreed with Vox, it has blocked the renewal of the Judiciary, which is trying to find turncoats… I am surprised that there are some socialist voices that do not condemn this attitude with the same forcefulness with which they speak of other things. So clear. It would be good for those of us who were and are no longer to see if we have to lend a hand to those who are now. Just like with us, when we had responsibilities, there were many people who, even if they didn’t see clearly what we were doing, helped.

Could the amnesty be included in that chain of decisions, such as pardons or sedition reform, which you believe contribute to reducing support for the independence movement because they heal wounds?

Those decisions are not a show of weakness, they are a show of generosity. We do it because we think it is good for Catalonia and for Spain. Because the supporters of the centralist, unique Spain, took us where they took us. The fault was not only theirs, also here in Catalonia there were those who decisively contributed by ignoring the rule of law and trampling on the rights of many Catalans and the parliamentary groups that were not part of the majority, but that represented half of Catalan society. Let’s not forget that. I perfectly remember the plenary sessions on September 6 and 7, 2017. Did that help to make Catalonia a single people, did it help to move forward? It is about helping to prevent that from happening again. And that will be achieved from a generous, open, plural, tolerant Spain. Because that way, in addition, the most radical independence movement will have fewer arguments. The majority of Catalans want coexistence.

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Do you think that Oriol Junqueras and Carles Puigdemont should be able to run in the next elections?

I don’t know, that’s not for me to decide. It will depend on many factors and, among others, their own decisions. It is about working to achieve normalization. It is not normal that in a country like ours there are people who have elected officials, European parliamentarians, who are living outside Catalonia and Spain. Working for coexistence and harmony obliges us all: I do not believe that the independentists are against coexistence.