News: You requested the intervention of the Truckers social work. What irregularities did you detect and why do you think the situation reached this level of seriousness?
Graciela Ocaña: Union social works are entities that are financed through mandatory taxes that all active workers pay plus the contributions made by the company. In the case of Truckers, it is a situation that has been going on for several years. Truckers’ social work is broken. Because? Because when one analyzes the balance sheets, the numbers clearly show that they owe more money, that is, if they liquidated everything they had and all their assets, they would not be able to offset the liabilities. When I reported this a few years ago, in 2018, the following balance sheets began to be disguised basically with loans from the union and the mutual insurance company, something that is illegal because union contributions have nothing to do with health, but rather are contributions of a different type. And there was never any control, beyond the fact that I have been requesting this from even the management of Mauricio Macri. Given that situation, I asked that they do what this administration has done in other social works, which is to intervene, right? The best known is the UATRE, a very large social work that was also intervened due to financial problems. If you allow me too, I want to talk about something. What we also have is a scheme that is seen in several social works. Bankrupt social works, family businesses of the union members, in this case of Moyano’s wife, which they cover financially, because they have transferred the assets of the social work to their own assets. And they are irregularities that have also been investigated for years in the courts, but the Moyano surname has enormous weight at the political and judicial level.
News: How do you evaluate, since we are talking about irregularities, the transparency standards of the national government, also linked to the Adorni case, the Andis case?
Ocaña: I believe that the transparency standards of the national government are very low, and this is reflected in the indicators carried out year after year by international organizations. Clearly the situation in Argentina, instead of improving, after the enormous fall it had with the government of Alberto Fernández, and which had been recomposed with Mauricio Macri, has now fallen again. One would think that a president who says he is coming to end caste and corruption should improve. This is not happening, it is a government that does not like controls, which has considerably lowered the standards in terms of everything that has to do with acquisition, bidding, where many times you look and find many irregularities, where officials have been removed, for example the General Trustee of the Nation, was removed from his position without too many explanations. I believe that it is a government that does not like controls, that ends up justifying corruption as other governments have done. The Adorni case, the Andís case… But there are officials who have enormous power and who do not sign a paper, and that is something that has never been seen. Now, when one looks at the opinion polls, one sees that corruption is clearly perceived by society as a very important problem. I hope that this serves to clearly change this, because I always say: when we talk about corruption we are not talking about a moral or ethical problem, we are talking about money from Argentines that escapes from their pockets into the hands of the always alive, who are always politicians, businessmen, union leaders, and that is what has to end in Argentina.
News: I was just talking about officials who have enormous power, but have no position. You are referring to Santiago Caputo, I imagine.
Ocaña: Yes, yes, clearly. And they do not present sworn statements, they have no responsibility, but they manage areas as important as Intelligence, transportation, health, where there are many resources that are used.
News: Why does the Government pay the cost it pays by keeping Adorni in the midst of the scandal?
Ocaña: It seems to me that Adorni should be a central piece for the Milei brothers, and I don’t know if this is what Adorni represents in the administration or if Adorni has been a participant in some other act of corruption, because the truth is it is inexplicable that the President defends him so strenuously. Saying that he was going to present, that he had all the papers, that he saw the affidavit, and that so many days have passed. It is not understood. If I were at any time in the position of the presidency and I had an official like that, I think I would clearly fire him, because first of all he is a liar, because the President has obviously lied to him about the sworn statement. He said that he had not traveled, when Justice has an enormous amount of trips, that he had not taken vacations, that he had paid for the trips. But, apart from that, an official who cannot explain the target in his sworn statement is an official who cannot be in the Government, because sooner or later he will have to be fired.
News: How were your beginnings in politics?
Ocaña: Well, it was a different policy. I graduated as a political scientist and I wanted, beyond the fact that I worked in the private sector, I wanted some of everything I had learned throughout my training to be able to put into practice. And there was a leader that I really liked, a Peronist leader, Carlos “Chacho” Álvarez, who at that time, in the 90s, in a world that was changing, because the Berlin Wall was falling and the entire structure of bipolarity that existed until that moment was changing, I really liked what he thought, what he wrote. He had separated from Peronism. And one day I decided to send him a letter, telling him that he had received me, that I would like to collaborate with him. And well, “Chacho” called me on the phone, I went to see him, and there I started working pro bono with him, I went in the afternoons, the time I could fit with the job I had at that time. And there I began a political activity and I learned a lot, I trained a lot with him, that is why the values of ethics, of transparency, seem to me to be important in public management.
News: What memories do you have of Lilita Carrió, with whom you spent many years?
Ocaña: Yes, the truth is that I have the best of memories, she is a very valuable leader of Argentina. I think she is a woman who has an interesting vision, because we not only talk about the political, but also the philosophical, and with whom I have been able to recover not only the relationship we had, but a relationship of mutual respect, and we have been colleagues in the Chamber until a few years ago.
News: What do you think of Karina Milei’s important role in the Government?
Ocaña: Look, he is obviously the President’s trusted person. Now, I always say: the President was elected by the Argentines. When we talked about the issue of Andis’s corruption and many suggested that Milei could not continue if Karina resigned, for example, I always say: Karina was not elected. At least Karina signs, right? Because she is a legal and technical secretary, right? In the case of Caputo, where he is a mere advisor, it is evident that there is a very big emotional issue with the President. The only thing that can be done is to ensure that there is no ill-gotten use of power. Now, it is striking that the President himself calls Karina “the boss,” right?
News: What is your opinion about the non-compliance with the University Financing Law?
Ocaña: I think it is very serious because the laws are not to be interpreted or applied only if I like them, they are to be followed and the President is breaking a law of Congress. Clearly, I insist, surely the Court is going to order its compliance and that is why it is negotiating or has negotiated with the rectors an increase in the allocation of resources to the universities, which also debunks the lie that the money was not there and that they had to get other resources from somewhere else. The money was always there, what was not there was the political will of the Government to finance university education, which is part of the educational problem, but we have the educational problem from below and if we do not strengthen it we will never finish solving it.
News: There is a government for the first time in Argentine history that speaks of eradicating the State, of making the State disappear. Do you see that this is feasible?
Ocaña: Today that does not exist, beyond the wishes of the great technocrats, investors or businessmen who would like to develop a society where they are the ones who set the rules and laws. Democracy is based in the State. We can argue that it is not a populist State but rather an efficient State, a State that fulfills its role, but I think I do not know a society that does not have a State.
Ariana Robles
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