THEand clouds of Hamlet he arrives In Italy preceded by triumphal French reviews. “It was fun: there is a new generation of critics who has never seen the Odin and wonders where you go up this way of doing theater, so far from what they are used to” he laughs sly Eugenio Barbathat theOdin Teatret (Odin as Odin, God both of fury and of wisdom) founded in 1964. Revolutionizing the history of dramatic art of the second half of the twentieth century and even creating a field of study: theTeatral anthropologyAnd. “We were also affected by the reactions of the spectators: they took details that we had not noticed” intervene Julia Varleya historical member of the Company as well as one of the managers of Magdalena Project, An international network that since 1986 aims to give voice and visibility to the women of the scene. “A lady invited us to show him to the associations of parents who lost a child.”
Shakespeare’s mourning
Yes, because the figure of the Prince of Denmark is only one of the elements of the show that will arrive From 7 May to the Menotti in Milanto pass From 14 to the Bologna Arena of the Sun and finally land, On June 2, at the Venice Biennale. An element taken from the life of Shakespeare himself is grafted on the text: the 11 -year death of the only male child. It’s called Hamnet, it’s no coincidence.
The genesis of this work, the eighty -fifth?
Eugenio Barba We gathered for the tests a couple of years ago without a precise idea. I asked one of the actors to sing a song, he chose one on the clouds … here is the nucleus! Each of us began looking for poems, music, paintings and texts on the topic.
Eugenio Barba (photo Francesco Corbelletta).
Julia Varley The dialogue on the clouds between Hamlet and Polonio jumped out, and from there the tragedy entered. The process has been long, as is typical of our shows: we start from a point and the journey leads us to something unexpected.
EB It is not we who are looking for the stories. They are the ones who knock us on the door.
“The secret of longevity”
The secret of creative longevity?
EB Living in the world without accepting it, but practicing this non-acceptance through beauty, whose effect is to move the viewer. And “move” means creating empathy for the character or the problem he faces, despite not having easy answers to offer. In addition, there is my obsession not to repeat us, not to transform us into a monument.
Jv Eugenio becomes more and more impatient (laughs) And it stimulates us to renew ourselves. By leading us to give the best, the opposite of what happens in the world where one gives the least possible.
Eugenio Barba and Julia Varley, two emigrants
Julia Varley on stage (Getty Images).
For your unpublished approach you have created the definition of “third theater”.
EB It is neither traditional nor of research, of avant -garde: we brought the theater outside the theater and we have entered it in life, in schools, in the hospitals, in the cellars, in the refugee camps … the real value is not the artistic result but the way in which the relationships between us, between us and the spectators, between us and the other groups, in Europe, in Latin America, in the East are established between us … The different were, the more interesting the meeting was.
Jv A Brazilian actress from Peru has just written to me: “We thought about you, you created these bridges”. To the young people who discourage themselves (“today is impossible!”) We tell how we started.
EB The impossible is only the possible one that takes more time more and effort.
By the way: how did you start?
EB The fact is that I am an emigrant (Apulian with studies at the Nunziatella in Naples, he left Italy at 18 years of age, moving to Sweden, Norway, Poland and finally establishing himself in Holstebro, Denmark, editor’s note) and I experienced the loss of language and roots, I experienced racism. I think for me the meaning of the theater was to have a homeland. I am interested in the human aspect, the ability of the “excluded” to unite and create a sociality that makes sense for them and for the context.
And you, Julia, the first “click”?
Jv My family is English but we had moved to Milan and 17 years old (at high school I bored) an acquaintance invited me to the evidence of an “underground”, “underground” company. I was intrigued – we were in ’69, terminology at the time was exclusively political – and I went. I have not heard the need to do theater, it is the theater that took me. At the time I participated in ski races: I have no more sciato! (laughs)
“The first meeting”
A moment of the show “The clouds of Hamlet” (photo Stefano di Budo).
And your first meeting?
EB Suddenly I saw Julia arrive. Unfortunately I did not accept who did not have an Odin Teatret actor from which to be “adopted” and supported economically. For a year I ignored it.
What effect did he, Julia?
JV I was not particularly upset: my focus was on the actors, not on the director. What has disappeared me, rather, was to discover that – despite being responsible for a social center in Italy – in reality I did not know how to act. The desire to change the world was in my head, ideological, without concreteness. I had to reconstruct starting from doing, from action.
Was there any gender discrimination in the company?
Jv At the start. Eugenio came from Jerzy Grotowski’s help-serving experience, and Grotowski had invested a lot in male actors. But he quickly changed his mind.
EB Training was the same and this immediately put men and women in a condition of equal.
The key moments of the Odin?
EB One of the former was the Biennale of ’67: we participated with the second show, Kasparianaand this opened us the doors of Italy. The last? In 2022: the director I had chosen myself fired me with the consent of that board of directors that had followed me for twenty years.
And how did you react? Didn’t you demolish ingratitude?
EB I started again from scratch. What did I need? Of the actors. The theater are the actors, not the buildings. And in any case in 2020 we had created a great archive with my library and my artistic legacy in Lecce, at the Bernardini Library, and the Barba Varley Foundation to carry on the causes that motivated us. And to support the “nameless”, the disadvantaged subjects by gender, ethnicity, geography, age both inside and outside the theater. Which, after all, is political by other means: those of beauty, vulnerability, obstinacy and refusal.
Against dark times
Julia Varley in the role of William Shakespeare in “The clouds of Hamlet” (photo Francesco Galli).
What can we do in these dark times?
EB Worry about carrying out our work well: it is the only way to affect. And to join others whose views we share: creating a micronucleo already represents a change within the company.
In 2026, Eugenio will turn 90. Will he celebrate?
EB I always celebrate! The 60 years of Odin Teatret, in 2024, celebrated them everywhere!
Projects?
EB A show with 70 people: actors and musicians from Japan, Bali, China. It is titled Resurrection…
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