If you had asked him ten years ago: ‘What is fascism?’, historian Federico Finchelstein would have said: ‘Just take a few months of college.’ But if you ask him now, he will answer immediately. “That is my responsibility as an expert on fascism. We can no longer afford the luxury of taking the time for it. We need answers now to the question of whether we are living in fascist times again. Not whether what we see around us is exactly fascism, as a historical analogy, but how fascist this is.”
Then first of all a definition of fascism is needed.
“Fascism rests on four pillars. Each of those four is necessary to speak of fascism. The first pillar is violence, the militarization of politics.”
The Argentinian historian with (also) an American passport sits behind a table in room 1.14 of the Humanities building of Utrecht University. The speed with which he formulates his answers reflects his impatience to explain today’s fascism. In New York, where he teaches at The New School for Social Research, he wrote in May 2024 Wannabe Fascists. That’s before Donald Trump – who Finchelstein likes wannabe fascist describes – became president, before he deployed the National Guard against demonstrators, before he gave the heavily armed immigration police ICE free rein in cities.
Your book had predictive value.
“Unfortunately yes, I say as a citizen. As a scientist I am happy that my analysis is confirmed by the events in my country. As an American citizen I had hoped to be wrong.
“In a well-functioning democracy, the state has the monopoly on violence can use violence, but only does so to keep the peace. The possibility the use of force gives the state its power. Fascists strongly disagree with this. For them, violence is not a means, but an end. The more force he uses, the stronger the leader is. Listen to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth: Why Are We Attacking Iran? Because it is possible. If you don’t use violence, you are weak, degenerate or effeminate.”
And the other pillars?
“Xenophobia is one where you do not view the opponent as a rival but as an enemy to be destroyed. Hear how Trump talks about the Democratic Party as the next enemy after Iran is defeated.
“Lies and propaganda is next. I wrote a book about fascist lies in 2020. In it I quote a post-war Argentine fascist who says: there is such a thing as an empirical reality, but the mythical reality transcends it. For followers of a fascist leader, two plus two can be five, if he says so. They are willing to replace facts with faith. In the US you now see an equalization of religion and politics.”
Hitler and Mussolini weren’t religious dictators, were they? Religion didn’t play a role in their fascism, did it?
“Well, in Mein Kampf Hitler already wrote that he was doing God’s work by fighting the Jews. The classical-fascist trinity of one people, one nation, one leader already harked back to religious mythology. But I am convinced that for Hitler and Mussolini it was a primarily instrumental approach to faith. Just like for Trump.
“Trump also sees himself as the embodiment of the people’s will. He has not yet received half of the total number of votes cast.”
It is essential for a populist to be elected in democratic elections. He derives his legitimacy from that
Check, check, check on three pillars. But your book is not called ‘Fascists’, but ‘Wannabe Fascists’. What is still lacking?
“The fourth pillar is dictatorship. You can have dictatorships without fascism, but not fascism without dictatorship. Trump is not there yet.”
Not yet?
“For a populist, it is essential that he is elected in democratic elections. That is how he derives his legitimacy. And then he uses that mandate to erode democracy. Trump also wants to be elected. Just look at how obsessed he is with the fact that he lost the 2020 elections.
“That was the starting point for this book: I was asked to write together with a colleague about the events of January 6, 2021. The storming of the Capitol was an attempted coup – that actually does not fit with populism. There Trump moved a little closer to fascism.”
We keep talking about Trump and the US now. But you also describe ‘wannabe fascists’ in other countries. Why do you think minds are suddenly ripe for fascism in different places?
“That is the subject of the book I am now writing. Why are people suddenly so eager to submit to fascists? They are no longer little children, are they? Why do they need such a father figure, such a savior? Why do they long for a restriction of the rights that have been won in democratic countries?
“I think it’s just a simpler message. Instead of equality, instead of structural changes to make our democracies more democratic, they sell hatred and the idea that some people are superior to others. People would rather hear that than have to face problems in society and perhaps not be able to enjoy the same abundance as before.”
Doesn’t everything you say also apply to left-wing totalitarian regimes? The propaganda, the violence, the dictatorship?
“No, there is no left-wing fascism. Fascism is an extreme nationalist ideology, you don’t see that on the left. Of course you have had left-wing dictatorships, such as Stalin’s Soviet Union. But there you see a contradiction between theory and practice. Yes, violence is used in the communist dictatorship, but that is at odds with the idea of a communist paradise. For the fascist, that contradiction does not exist. A fascist cannot criticize violence from a fascist perspective, because fascism is violent. As the Spanish fascists said: Viva la muerte! Long live death!”
